Rob Dawson, Business Development Manager at ServiceScaler has the absolute privilege of catching up with Brendan Kelso, founder of Legalsites. Brendan is an expert in all things marketing for lawyers and law firms.

We discuss a range of topics, including who we are, how we help legal practices (Relevant to our fields of expertise), and most importantly, how we met and got acquainted!

Get it as a Podcast

Or watch the recording on Youtube below!

TRANSCRIPT

Note, this transcript has not been editted from the speech to text engine it was generated from

So that will pop up your eyes Robbie from service Gail thanks for tuning in today I have the privilege of doing a session with Brendan Kelso from legal sites bring a welcome hello everybody could be you might also have a year and I really appreciate you are taking the time is burning the time with me to do this so to get things off I don’t like people to work to find out how we met because it’s a an interesting story yet yep nothing embarrassing really are we disconnected through LinkedIn I actually have an idea that you lived in Newcastle and I looked at your profile my, God is the lakes are photos of farm can’t say what it’s called about you know around weather for sure is that iconic building in Newcastle metadata is still that disgust Mui so do we do about the coffee as soon as we were legally allowed to meet up for coffee what’s the lockdown restrictions were Estar I’m sure it was gay one of the restrictions easing we went let’s go and catch up for coffee and my favourite part about the the way that we matter is that yeah I just connected with you on LinkedIn and worked in same industry in same sector had similar interest Okay well you know that’s a good way to kick things off by establishing that meaningful relationships are actually going out having coffee so doing something off platform was invaluable because you are both from newly are we both have similar values and similar ethics are both love what we do in business so it’s just been no in been really good arm speaking of that you’re having good morals and ethics and what we do in business are why we love doing what we do and how did you getting to legal sites it was a was on some straight forward thing like I think a lot of people can of find out what they want to do through finding out what they don’t Wanna do so I did my law degree are it might look like in the background I have 4° hard like everyone think that’s that’s true but it’s not as just a mirror image search is the law degree out there and as the communication degree so much I finished my water bree are after a few things I tried a few things at in Wanna do and then I arm I had been building websites for about five years running a DJ business school and then his DJ staff I have any interest in life and hounds I had had been building websites and I think I’ll always knew I enjoy building websites I didn’t want to admit how much I enjoyed websites Alessio and on my marketing and is and I got the idea to the to start a business world would be providing services to the legal industry specifically arm and I did an online course that really opened my eyes are the importance of choosing in me shall not every one needs to do that but is work well for me and every thing just went really really well I got off to a really good start and are now talk to you I’m on zoom in and last good the subject matter expert it so it’s amazing how those things come about and nothing you’re in a really interesting or advantageous position in terms of your market segment that you’re focused on with what you love to do because you have a background in in law that you have a degree in that arm but you love marketing so it’s like something that you really good at and something that you love this will come together and enables you to go forward and do what you do so that passenger that is and of Italy being up to deliberately service around that is a pretty amazing story so I love that yet so how did you ever tell us your story in case some people have never heard that before to how to get into service: oh my it’s yeah of the odds are long and interesting career the grey hair will give away the long arm it’s been an interesting career so i grub in Tamworth out in regional New South Wales arm I always want to be an engineer a Civil War structural engineer and everything I did in high school was leading into that and I applied for a job and a place that I applied for a job I knew someone who worked their lesson what are you doing on Saddam apply for a job in engineering W like a job in IT ON off okay maybe I guess so I know that it be alright I was younger like your job so I got into IT there and that’s where my career started going to Systems admin is a managing infrastructure in computers and help the support and all those things I have a technical background from there that was in objects removed into private sector started doing some stuff around document management process automation and no sites of things so continuing to do support managed services IT still technical still sitting on the technical side up and moving across into business analytics and scoping on project management or things along the way through progress and I kept doing that so moving our further and further along the line doing business and when it’s a process automation very folks rent software relating business and my immediate previous roles this was Gemma versus software company and sitting IN us we did so is all about my hands on everything in the business owner just the technical side with the operational side of the business doesn’t marketing you know that search and all-encompassing rolls on again a great exposure to everything but that was in Sydney and as much as I love visiting Sydney insert not a place that I wanted to be permanently bring up a young family so right now in Newcastle – yeah it was great to have the opportunity must service: I done some work and legal previously we had a background in IT and I love business development I just love style of talking people being able to deliver a good service that’ll make me feel brilliant of the day is actually getting winds like line so you have to save a match made in heaven about six months ago so we got that off the ground so when I was brought in was when we did our brand launch off the ground and it’s all been going well ever since amazing man and you may be the first IT guy and a method is not wearing a woody possibly possibly yeah I still love the yard the suit and tie thing I think it it works for me it’s my personal bran thing we spoken about this before it’s really just my personal brand thing let’s just be honest you tell me that this is what you sleep in its true these are actually my pyjamas on open out of bed and my hair stands two was already on just so you know that sounds lovely I can’t relate to that at and any birds are are not it on time to take over the diff interview Huber I’m I’m curious let’s be honest we put it right out talking points of looking at it right now and what I would like to know is to all the lawyers out there listening to you right now what would be maybe three of the biggest problems that you’re solving for law firms and lawyers during these are strange times yeah that’s a good question are there is probably a couple things to do and is not just a strange times thing I’ve its sort of what we lead with arm so this is our brand and what we do number one is provided immediate access to good service so what are the things we really pride ourselves on is that our service desk when you call our services that you speak to an engineer new just thought directly to the engineer you pick up the phone to call us you speak to the engineer a menace or ticketing process and everything that happens in the background as happens with most IT companies up with with us you distorts the engineer it’s great so you just get immediate access to service and that’s a really powerful thing to have our personnel and one of the other things with Brussels on as a personnel and our areas of expertise so we only do IT for law firms that’s what we do and the reason we do that is because our people internally are well educated and knowledgeable around all the things this is of software and bits of technology within law firm so we like dictation we know about signing platforms we know about the practice management systems people use we know how to integrate those platforms together and connect them together are we know about these I’m streaming firms are being impacted and tried and malicious activity being formed against firms are we know about the operations and things that firms do you know the regardless of their practice area of “French practice areas with the relationship throughout industry is well with people like yourself so where well CD in that area and have and could have access to good knowledge and good resources and good networks it means that the efficiency that we can deliver services through to our clients are is really high so we deliver with high level of efficiency high level of efficiency on from our point of view means that we can keep the cost down arm so the other thing that we do firms is reduce the costs of delivering IT services to them as well which were really proud of so those around saw three key things that aren’t that we do for our clients and I’m pleased that you asked this question because I am for me this is bread but I talk about is tough day in day out like don’t find it exciting and sure other people to fight up I’m more interested about the cheap problems that use all for your kind I love sales and marketing and your marketing guy so I’m interested to hear this tell me about the three big things that serve that you do or solve problems you solve well the the bread and butter of legal sites is’s law from websites Visio and quite a few other things at me why do birds would say it’s hard to Princess three bet it is author websites SER and then advertising like Google ads Spotify Ards copywriting a lot of consulting and an advice on on marketing but definitely they’re the two big things is the law firm websites on the SEI is the main problem main problem solving while a lot of lawyers don’t have time to do marketing don’t want to do marketing doesn’t interest and they want to do the law they don’t Wanna arm they don’t want to or can’t train themselves to become a web developer and SUO specialist is just wouldn’t make no sense at all its unlikely that they would have a member of staff that has that level of ability to build them a website that will generate leads back to get them found on Google search so I guess that’s where I come in I I see maybe one of the the big advantages of my brand is that I do have that legal background in and IDC a lot of other agencies that don’t seem to really understand what’s lawyers are actually doing didn’t seem to really understands the the language end and how to communicate appropriately and ethnically are they don’t understand the ethical guidelines that are faced by law firms and we got it we go back many years ago many law firms what really allowed to market themselves either so it’s kind of still a fairly new thing better understanding like understanding what’s a family lawyer actually does a criminal lawyer doesn’t understanding wills and estates and all these other common arm practice areas that’s a big big thing is understanding what on earth law firms really do and I don’t and I don’t really I personally don’t know how you could build a really effectively generating warfare website if you don’t truly understand what a nurse actually do and that’s a big reason why decided to do this niche of law firms because I can’t realistically become a copywriting expert on numerous different industries gives there is just my brain is just another big cholesterol asked Alicia so they’re waiting in push myself through those five years at university and my brain almost exploded and then I thought warts is gonna learn a whole other on the gonna become a next on arm hairdressers and engineers and dentists and an medical centres like I can’t do it so I remember law firms and that’s what I love most about that… Or something else that is really important specialising in in that area are and like you say you don’t learn about your engineers or hairdressers or what other businesses do and this is where a sort of you differentiate yourself from from an outsider looking in looking at it objectively this is where you differentiate stock because when my thing would engage someone to do their website for them the first thing the website provider would do is go okay you need to give me all the content you need to put on the site you need to write everything you need to write all the copy you need to our you know try and explain what it is that you do and how you do it but, somebody like you you go again, you firm does great why can build you something because you just know right I had a client come to me and of of this in up not naming any names but when I took over the STO campaign arm had a look at what the other agency had done and is it seem like they were leaving some fake reviews for this law firm arm from not real clients and reviews for services they don’t do so a personal injury on today let only lots I hastily got those those reviews removed as obviously there’s some real serious issues with doing that with us is a quick example they were talking about that agency in Sydney right of similar name where they paying attention to this law firm in what they really do after well maybe not with a outsourcing to India arm possibly so am yeah that’s that’s an extreme example of the risk that a law firm might take you say to hire an agency that doesn’t have a strong track track record of working with law firms I would be very careful in and asking who actually works for the agency are they are they outsourcing to India to other arm countries other than Australia that maybe don’t really understand the legal industry in Australia Gazette is much more common than than you think yeah it’s it’s an entire splitting real talk it’s real talk right you can am not afraid to put it out there on the seat of the known for being named right now Bert are I do it often have to fix up the mess from agencies that have have not done the right thing by the client yeah and when you say the right thing by the client what do you mean by that like let’s say and I like to dig into the little bit what is the right thing by the client actually look like this is something that meet firstly I’m very passionate about is when I’m competitive and when I think of when I go okay what is a win like for me I like to actually see my client went to any win I can provide my client arm that makes me feel so I’d like to answer and is everyone you just digging into that little bit what is doing the right thing by your client it really starts with actually paying attention actually paying attention and our brains can only one in my brain can only deal with with a limited amount of stuff every day and everyone else really but that’s the case regretfully need to be paying attention to the client need to be actually that’s it you pay attention because we’re living in the attention economy right now and they’re all unlimited distractions out there so good agency needs to be focusing on what the Lawson actually does what they actually want arm and their teen Easter fully understand that it is putting in the time putting in the effort and you’ll pay attention if you really care about what you do icon for selling for myself, bit of a nobody comes to online marketing and I Often wake up at like 5 AM in the morning and am thinking about marketing for some reason that you should you gotta love it if you don’t love it then it’d be just it be horrible so yes like a body with what are your thoughts on that yeah it is difficult for me because I saw the commodity are IT is very much they are commoditised things were talking that hardware with services does matter what we’re talking about in context of IT is all the commodity time to get excited about that will be passionate about that but why am passionate about is what I advise somebody all or give them good advice or my good recommendations and they implement those electric those things in place and then they reap the reward of that on the other side so are no recommendations when you hear something that is a good cyber security stuff you wouldn’t play store here is a good recommendation around how you can manage SharePoint and teams as that we do all the time and this is a really limited knowledge in the marketplace is your best practices around things and SharePoint news how you can maximise the foyer business of the report that implies let us know when ours is so easy why won’t we doing this before and I like that sort of stuff, bit like you right away, five in the morning either the great idea of how I can collect like this since it’s just a strange life am I in the spirit of being as helpful as possible to minor my invite just give a few quick quick tips arm on what law firms could do right now considering you know maybe money to be tired more they could do with their marketing yeah other love you to do that a lot thinking that this is probably that the point of this session where if you want some takeaway is this is the bit to listen to fire away oldest fire away okay so these are just some quick notes I wrote down so a lot of people are so this facebook groups right and a lot of people go on these facebook groups and day hey discuss various different things but every now and then some of gonna bring up a legal issue in a facebook group give you an example because I still have involvement in the wedding industry and I’m part of the wedding facebook group and a lot of them run businesses and sometimes they had disputes with clients and they put forth out legal issue in the facebook group and then the people who are answering those legal issues are never lawyers they are people who have a legal background obviously just Wanna be helpful but a large amount of people don’t feel comfortable approaching law firms arm feel comfortable approaching aware that and how much school is gonna cost they are they are there afraid various other reasons so right now would be a perfect time to be doing some research to go in Soo facebook groups that would fit the type of demographic that your clients are and not soliciting clients were just quietly paying attention to the conversation that is going on what issues are people having right now so there’s one simple thing another thing maybe not like specifically marketing but I would be making arm and effort to get in touch with your existing client relationships with your existing connections letting them know that you are okay and you are ready for business if you’re not open the business that I think you can also clarified out but if you are open for business strengthen those existing relationships because I had a chat with a management consultant yesterday and he said that some law firms are experiencing it and 90% drop in new client inquiries decline acquisition is down there’s not a lot that can be done about that so strengthening those existing relationships asking people what they need is a just a note you’re you’re you’re ready and willing to help those are some quick things are kinky, keep going I’m enjoying, going okay then let them the valuable staff email is available sideways at the bottom like to see that our audience can just take why in the world right so I guess so there could be multiple other revenue streams that are your law firm could explore right now via existing clients that you have its much easier to convince someone to do business with you if they have done business with you in the past because you’re known liked and trusted in a stranger any more also much cheaper as well but am also let’s see what else have I got here on my notes arm some other quick little marketing things that you can do with your websites so three things on these things are free not three things so some free advice you done after comes illegal sites and pay me all this money you can do this yourself so you can go to Neil Patel.com you can do a free site audit on your law firm website I tell people all the time to do that to let you know the issues with your website from an STO perspective so search engine optimisation if there is some arm faults and mistakes in your website that are limiting its appearance in Google search than the site audits going to show you what some of those things are explained why they matter and how they could be fixed many of those things you you probably could fix them yourself you might not need to hire a web developer some of the basic stuff I will be looking at your website and just ensuring that all your lead generation is actually working so the buttons that you meant to clicked to call the office do they actually all work and no this is really simple staff that amazing how many websites make mistakes with every generation you click a button and Anna doesn’t actually call Oracle is a wrong number or you click a button to email doesn’t work there so many broken links make sure all your lead generation is actually working so when you do get someone to your website connects to get in touch with you arm I would also ensure that if you are open for business that you should clarify that on your website should be armed clear from first glance as soon as someone goes on to your homepage they should see a banner that says where a good for business quickie to learn more and that’s what you explain you know how you’ve adapted and simple things like that you are open for business arm all so old old of what we’ve been talking a lot birds will we mentioned this before we still fairly new at weed with only just met each other in the last couple of weeks maybe set yourself a goal to build one meaningful connection per week LinkedIn is a good place to start especially if you’re in that beta be one meaningful connection per week is if you honestly the ask yourself as as a lawyer especially ask yourself have you ever received a client based on a word of mouth referral I would suspect that 99.9% of law lawyers the answer to that is of course that’s the case then why not build one meaningful connection per week especially right now if there is a lot of extra time right absolutely and I couldn’t agree more and if we do that process or LinkedIn and you know we would have certainly add opportunity to hang out and do this and you know if I have burned I’m working with that says I’ll hey Robert you do know someone who does websites or you know someone who can help us out with a digital marketing strategy I have someone to go to I have someone to refer someone that that I trust that is easy to refer and I can’t do that if I don’t know you yes it’s it’s actually that simple so going through the process of making that that relationship will that connection meaningful and I spoke about this the other day in a post on LinkedIn I have even been a comment I made somewhere and I think it was possibly even on on your post that LinkedIn is like a networking you got a LinkedIn and there’s heaps of people there and you have dismissive conversations so you know the the instructions are very sure that Eric where everyone disorders as I am Rob I am a sales guy from an IT company for law firms in Lego knowledge wonderful are and that’s about the extent of it is only when you go off platforms are outside the constraints of the networking event which is in this case is LinkedIn you take them out of that environment and you have that meaningful conversation and you know when we went had coffee a couple weeks back nylon a lot about you about your background where you came from passionate about your morals and ethics and just by having a conversation went okay well he’s a guy that shares the same values as mean does I work for his clients I’ve seen the work that you’ve done and was the beings are the marketing professional I’m really excited about that soon as I can see the good things that are happening there and it makes it really easy for me to refer you die does go okay Ms website just go rent is the guy who do the right thing by you does the quality work and I would only know that by having a meaningful relationship so yes angry U clarify that so when a talk about one meaningful connection you don’t mean adding someone Facebook writing someone to LinkedIn it’s actually following through arm having that face-to-face if you can’t meet up face-to-face. Different locations that’s cool zoom is great you can face time just 10 minutes talking to a stranger discussing each other’s businesses having a laugh that can really grow into something really strong down the line you never know my could call in six months time and that 10 minute face time that you had with basically complete stranger is now turned into a new new opportunity and new client absolutely couldn’t agree more horrible thing with waffle on for long enough about stuff that I think is pretty high value of actually really enjoyed a catch up I always do so Brennan thank you very very much for joining the army